Episode #21: Burnout, Brain Science, and Decision-Making for Highly Sensitive People
A compassionate and research-based conversation on overwhelm, energy management, and the HSP brain with Esther Bergsma.
Welcome back to The Happy HSP Podcast. I’m your host, Kimberly Marshall, and today I’m joined by social science researcher and author Esther Bergsma. We talk about her research on HSP burnout, parenting highly sensitive children, and the complexities of the highly sensitive brain.
If you’ve ever wondered why you’re so exhausted after a normal workday or why decision-making feels harder for you than it seems for others, then this episode is for you.
I hope you enjoy it!
Kim: All right, Esther, welcome. It’s so wonderful to meet you and have you today.
Esther: Thank you.
Kim: So, my first question for you is about your journey as a highly sensitive person. How did you find out you were highly sensitive, and what did that look like for you?
Esther: Well, I was working as a manager in an organization, and I called in sick, and I didn’t get better. So, at one point I was diagnosed with a burnout, and I have consulted all kinds of therapists and psychologists and all sorts of persons that were meant to help me, but I still didn’t get better. And then I think about after a year, I read a book by Elaine Aron, and that changed so much for me was so, I really was very critical myself. I was thinking, oh, I have failed. I wasn’t a good manager. I didn’t do this right. Why am I not getting better? I’m doing my best, but why doesn’t it help what I’m doing? And when I read the book, everything kind of twisted and I thought, oh wow. It’s nothing wrong with me. I’m just different. And it was such a relief to read that.
Kim: What were some of the things that you were seeing that kind of illuminated this for you?
Esther: Well, one of the things was that when I had a responsibility for the office in the north of the Netherlands for all the years, the legal activities in the organization, but the person before me was very, very strict manager, a very top-down manager. And so, my colleagues said, okay, you can’t make good decisions. You’re not good at decision making as a manager. So, I really thought, okay, yeah, well, if you can’t do that, you’re not a good manager.
But when I read the book by Elaine, she said, okay, we’re not swift in decision making, but we’re making well-considered decisions. We’re really thinking about it. We’re really trying to make the best decision we can. And yeah, I thought, yeah, yeah, that’s what I’m doing. I’m not on the spot saying, okay, we’re going that way. No, we’re going to do this. But I’m trying to figure out what’s the connection between things and what’s the best for everyone and trying to make a very balanced decision. So, I did feel better about myself after read that, and it was such a huge step in my recovery.
Kim: Wow I’m so, with you there, it’s like, wait, just because I’m not making split second decisions, it’s like I’m connecting all the dots. So, it’s a different type of thinking it through. And that’s such a great point. I feel like we’re not always recognized for that part of ourselves. You may not get something right away, but we can think through it very deeply.
Esther: Yeah, we can. And when you’re in a very swift organization where everything has to be on the spot, you feel like you’re flawed or something, but when you think about the decisions our society has to make and all the issues that are in play, well, it is a big advantage that we are connecting all the dots and thinking about the bigger picture and all the consequences a decision has. So, I really do think we should be applauded more for this.
Kim: Absolutely. I agree with you. So, after you read this book and you put these connections together, how did that alter the course of your understanding or…
Esther: Yeah, I did understand myself more, but I tried to talk about it to a therapist. But the first reaction I got “Now, high sensitivity is something, a marketing genius found out. It’s not something real.” This was over 10 years ago, although it’s not really accepted everywhere still. But it really shook me. And so even when I found out I was highly sensitive, I had a really long path to go because only after four years I was able to do something else than just resting and walking and eating. It was a long four years
Kim: You had to recover.
Esther: Yeah, in that process, I really had to, oh, sorry. What do you say? Taught it myself. Now it’s not a good expression. I really had to teach myself. Yeah, okay. Sorry. So, in that process, I really had to teach myself what it is to be a highly sensitive person and how you can cope in daily life. There were some books on the subject, but not that many. And so, I picked up a course to counseling. I studied counseling and really tried to connect the knowledge from high sensitivity to counseling knowledge. And that did help me because I really learned to see all the patterns that I had developed over the years and figured out what was my high sensitivity, but also what did help me and what didn’t help me anymore. So, try to be more of a support for myself instead of a critical person to myself.
Kim: And so, this journey led you to different type of work. Can you tell me a little bit about the work that you do now or even between what that was?
Esther: Yeah. So, I started at a ministry of social Affairs in the Netherlands, and after that, I became manager at an organization that was, well, not so good organization for me. So, when I recovered, I thought, okay, I don’t know if I am going back to any organization at all. So, I started my own practice in counseling after the study I had completed.
But when I was counseling people, I also noticed that I wanted to explain things to them so they could understand themselves better, but there were not that many researchers done at that moment. And because I have an education in social science research, that was the reason for me to pick up that experience. So, I did a couple of dozen researches amongst parents of highly sensitive children amongst adults, amongst employees, and try to figure out what are the things that HSPs encounter and what can help them in their daily lives. So, when I gathered all that information I put down in books, in presentations and in blocks to, well, it’s just to share the knowledge.
Kim: What were some of your findings? Or did you have certain threads or, I’m curious.
Esther: Yeah. So, my first book was about highly sensitive children. It’s only published in Dutch, but what I found is that many of the parents find it really difficult to give their child what they need because other people are saying they should do different things. So, you shouldn’t be too soft. The child needs borders or consequences. But when you’re raising a highly sensitive child can be very challenging if you’re not really connected to the child and really into its needs. Not that you don’t have to sometimes say, okay, this is something you shouldn’t do. You have to draw the line now and then, but it’s so much more important, tune into their needs and work from there.
Kim: Right. They’re not lashing out. There’s a need that’s not being met or right. There’s more understanding and empathy that needs to go into that, I would imagine.
Esther: Yeah, exactly. And because they lash out is because they are overwhelmed sometimes with all the noises, but also probably more of the time because of all the emotions they are feeling, and not only their own emotions, but the emotions they feel from others, from their parents, from their brothers and sisters, from the teachers. So, it’s really taking a toll on them. And if you don’t see that, you’re reacting in the wrong way to them. So, they need to feel safe first instead of feeling that their emotions can’t be there.
Kim: More understanding, less discipline. It’s not like they’re being disobedient. They’re processing so much and they’re so young. They’re learning.
Esther: Yeah, exactly. They’re learning, and you need to guide them in this learning process. So, what I discovered there, and it’s something that adults experience the same is when you understand why you’re acting the way you’re acting, you are so much closer to the solution. So, the knowledge about your character, the knowledge about your traits, and how it turns out in different environments, that’s so important.
Kim: Right. Can you explain that a little bit more if we’re closer to, can you say that again? Not sure that sank in for me.
Esther: Yeah. So perhaps you or one of the listeners have noticed that sometimes you react in a way that you really don’t like about yourself, but it seems sometimes impossible to change it. For example, you are not very nice to your loved one, or you don’t have the patience with your children as you would like to. And when we are really focusing on that negative behavior and thinking, okay, we’re not good, we’re not the way we want to be, you really focus on the behavior side.
But when you know more about why you are not that patient, you know more about, so for example, a lot of HSPs are so overwhelmed at the end of the workday because they have had all those different stimuli and all those different emotions and all those different thoughts, and when you don’t have the time to really process them, it takes up so much of your brain capacity that when something new comes in, so a remark from your loved one or a question from your child, your brain just booms and you lash out.
So, once you see that, it comes from that process, it’s more easy to think, for example, from when you’re driving home, don’t listen to up-tempo music, but take meditation music so you can release your stress hormones and you enter the house in a completely different way,
Kim: More self-care, more understanding about yourself and empathy for yourself that you’re angry and being an awful human. It’s that you need a minute to decompress because you’ve had a lot to do in that day.
Esther: Yeah, exactly. Only when you know yourself and really know what high sensitivity it is about and how it works for you. Only then can you have that kind of empathy for yourself.
Kim: What else have you found other than the children? And do you do work with brains I heard, or research?
Esther: Yes. Yeah. My second book is the Highly Sensitive Brain in Dutch, and in the English version is the brain of the highly sensitive person.
So, I have written that book because exactly for this reason. If we really know what’s going on inside our brain, we understand so much more of ourselves, and so more able to retain a balance. So, what I did was get all the research on high sensitivity, and especially on brain research on high sensitivity, but also on subjects that are at the corners at the sides of this.
And I try to make a coherence image of it so that when someone asks, why you so negative at the end of the day, or why you’re just so not friendly anymore, you can say, well, that’s because my brain has taken in a lot of stimuli and my brain processes all that information so deeply. I’m connecting all the dots. I’m thinking about all the consequences. I’m trying to get everybody happy and get the harmony right. So, at the end of the day, my brain is so depleted from all the things that it has done, and if I don’t restore my energy, I don’t have even the possibility to be friendly anymore. So that was the main aim of my book, let people really know what’s going on. So, you really understand more about that behavior that we’re talking about.
Kim: Right? Right. It’s like, I’m not choosing to respond this way. My body is responding this way.
Esther: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It’s not that you’re not responsible, of course, but it explains why you are acting in a way that you are most of the time not really wanting to act.
Kim: Yeah. What did you find about the HSP brain? Did you compare it to the other 80%, the population’s brain? What were the differences that you found?
Esther: Yeah. Well, one important difference is that when you’re doing a task, so there can be anything, but the HSP brain has a lot of more brain areas active. So, we can see in the brain scans, I didn’t do those myself. I just read them from really brain scientists. But time and time we see that more brain areas are active and there’s more connectivity between different brain areas.
So, it means that, well, for example, what we talked about, those well-considered decisions, we view things from very different angles, and our brain engages in a lot of different processes for the same task. So, I sometimes use a metaphor of the toolbox. So non-highly sensitive person, for example, has a hammer in his hands and thinks, okay, I have a problem here, try to solve it with a hammer, and only if I can’t solve it with a hammer, I’m going to get another tool and see if that can help me.
But a highly sensitive person always uses all the toolbox tools to see if anything can add something to the problem. So, with the hammer, I can do this, but with this one I can adjust this a bit. And that’s what is going on in the brain. It’s engaging all those different processes, and it takes a lot of energy, but it also helps you when you are in a very complex situation, if it is cognitive complex or socially complex, that you really see the different sides of it and the different solutions that are possible there.
Kim: So, you’re saying that the other 80%, they kind of whack at it and see if that works, and if not, they whack at it again with something else, but we kind of think about it from different angles and different ways to see what the best solution will be and then try to solve it. Is that what you’re saying?
Esther: Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. Well, to put perhaps a bit more polite, the non-HSPs try to solve things with as less energy as possible. So of course that’s an advantage.
So, we see that, for example, they have done different tests, and you have a test where you have contradictory information, and you have to try to figure out what’s the best way. So, if it’s an easy question, you see that a non HSP can get the answer with very little brain activity. But the HSP is really engaging all those brain areas and is really active, and so needs a lot more energy for that simple question.
Once the question get really complicated, you see that the non HSPs are a bit okay, what’s going on? And they have to really do their best to try to get an answer. But the HSPs used to engaging all those areas, so they still activate all those areas in their brains, and that makes it easier for them to come up with a solution for the difficult question.
Kim: Right? So, it’s not that they’re hacking away at it, it’s just that our brains are different. They’re different. It almost makes me think that it’s just different solutions need different types of thinking, not innately good or bad, it’s different.
Esther: Yeah, that’s a good, so when you are in need of routine work or work, yeah, that’s more routine. Like an HSP is not the best person for that. When you have in your organization or wherever in need of a person that sees complexity and sees connections, then you really need to hire an HSP because that’s where they’re at their best.
Kim: Fascinating. Do you have examples of where this may be useful?
Esther: Well, I think there are a lot of jobs at the moment that have much complexity in it. So, for example, when you’re a teacher, I think it’s more complicated nowadays than it was about 20, 30 years ago because there’s so much more, well, what society asks of you, where you have to consider all kinds of aspects. And I really do think that a highly sensitive person would be a very good teacher in connecting to the child, seeing its needs, but also seeing the bigger picture of the system and trying to figure out what works here and what doesn’t work here.
At the same time, what we also see is that all those extra things are really depleting them. So, they’re more at risk of getting a burnouts when they don’t balance their energy. And the other problem is that especially HSP teachers really like to contribute to society. And when there’s more time spent at administration and forums and whatever, they are really the first that can’t take that anymore.
Kim: That’s such a great point that even if we’re well suited for a job, a lot of the stuff that comes with it can burn us out, especially when we’re using our brain so much more in depth.
Esther: Yeah. So, one of the key findings also is that if you don’t take your rest, if you don’t let your brain recover, then you are at risk at so many things. Not only the burnout, but also different diseases because your brain and your body are of course connected. And if you’re not feeding and resting and energizing it right, HSPs are so much more at risk at getting a disease.
Kim: In your research, did you find anything about the best kind of rest for our brains?
Esther: Yeah, we did find some relevant outcomes there. One of the important things is that you need to do something that asks a different kind of activity in your brain than what you’re doing all day. So, for example, you can do crosswords that can help your brain block out all the other thoughts that you’re having. But when you are already doing in your normal work, something that looks a bit like crosswords, then that’s not a good thing to do.
One thing is just you have to try to get out of your normal thought stream, so to speak. Another thing is that if you can find an activity that’s going to blank out your brain, when you are playing sports, you don’t have room for negative thoughts or things that can work very well, or with yoga or meditation. We know from different research that meditation and yoga have a much better outcome for HSPs than for non HSPs. But we also know that for some meditation is really difficult because it’s really hard to, let’s stop the thoughts.
So, it still is a very individual process to figure out what works for you. And when you are trying to figure that out, the most important thing is to feel your body to feel. If it really reduces your stress in your tension in your body, if it doesn’t do that, it’s not the right thing for you, so you need to look further.
Kim: Yeah, that’s such a great point because a lot of us live in our heads and our brains, and to bring it back to the body and listen to how it feels in your body, I feel like we lose touch with that. What are some of the things that you personally struggle with as a highly sensitive person, would you say? What are some of the challenges that you have with your sensitivity?
Esther: Well, I’m happy that a lot of things I was able to turn around, but what I still notice with myself is that when I have a day full of social activities, it really takes a toll on me. So, I really have to turn in bed early, schedule a day off the day after. And I really that my brain is going over all the conversations, going over all the looks that I have seen in the eyes of the others, and now I know that it’s my brain that is really focused on social context, but it still really needs rest to process. I can’t just go on and then I’m, that’s when I am not that patient anymore.
Kim: Yeah, yeah. Oh, I can relate. I can relate. What do you love and celebrate about your sensitivity?
Esther: What I really like is my creative way of thinking. I really like that I am able to see all connections between different kinds of information and different kinds of research outcomes, for example. And I really like the process of trying to make it a comprehensible picture again. That’s one I really think, oh, yeah, so glad I’m highly sensitive and my empathy. That’s one of the wonderful things when I feel and see what I can do for friends or family or, it’s so, it’s so rewarding to have such a deep connection. And what are your favorite HSP talents?
Kim: What was that?
Esther: What are your favorite HSP talents?
Kim: What do I love about my trait? I am, I, gosh, there’s so much to it, and especially why I started this project was to learn more about how other people see it too, because I do think it has such a negative stigma in society in general. But I mean, I love to feel the good feelings of the depth of processing and the thinking. And like you, I’m a writer, so I love taking all the informational bits and putting them together in a way that makes them simple. Taking the complex and simplifying it. I get joy out of that. So, there’s a lot that I enjoy about it. That’s one of the things that I love these conversations is I want more people to feel that love for this trade. There is so much to celebrate.
Esther: Yeah, there is. But I also understand if you’re overwhelmed daily, then it’s really hard to see it.
Kim: I agree with you. Absolutely. Which is the perfect segue to my next question for you, and is what advice do you have for HSPs who may be struggling in that way?
Esther: Yeah, so the first thing, I already said it, but is to really know yourself, really dive into the trait of high sensitivity, read about it and try to apply it to you. So, what is happening to you? What makes that you are overwhelmed at the end of the day? Is it the toxic atmosphere in the office or is it the loud noises or is it your own perfectionism? Or really try to figure out what’s going on and try to make after that the most supportive environment you can create. Don’t be too shy to ask for things. Don’t think, okay, this can’t be done, but really try to talk to others and say, well, this works for me, and I will be such a better partner or friend or employee if we can do this, if we can do it this way. And I hope you will notice that it’s so much easier then, so much easier when you are in an environment where things work for you.
Kim: Amazing. It’s such a huge thing for us. The environment, the people we’re around, the way that we’re interacting. Know yourself and know how you interact and what you need and stand up for those needs. That’s wonderful advice. And I second you on that. That’s been a huge thing in my own personal experience. And I think sometimes we have trouble standing up for our needs because we’re so empathetic. We don’t want to put other people in an uncomfortable situation. But you can do it kindly. You don’t have to be a monster about it. You can just stand up for your needs in confident and kind ways.
Esther: Yeah, it’s really worth it.
Kim: Yeah. I’m with you. Yeah, so much more worth it for our sense of peace and our energy. Like you said, it’s all about you only have so much energy.
Esther: And it’s really different from all your non HSB friends who you feel like can do anything and go to this and go to that and do that again so much. But when you keep comparing yourself to them, you always feel you are not good enough, or not doing enough, but you’re doing things differently. What you are doing is so much more intense and so much more thorough and so much from another kind of intensity that you can only keep doing that if you give yourself time to restore.
Kim: Absolutely. A hundred percent. So, you had said that you had some research that you’re doing next. You have a project coming up that you’re working on?
Esther: Well, I’ve done different researches, as I told them. I have done most of them in the Netherlands, but a couple of years ago, I’ve done international research on HSPs in the workplace, and it’s published on my website also in English blogs for those who are interested. And my recent project is about social life, so about the things that we have been talking about that you are really empathetic towards your friends, but also think, I don’t quite like this, but how can I tell them? And how do you regulate all those feelings that you’re feeling from everyone around you?
So, I have made a questionnaire that people can share their experiences with, and we have HSP associations and HSP experts from all over the world who are participating and asking people to share their experiences so we can tell more about this important topic, and I’m going to write a new book about it. So, it gives you insight in your more social brain. So, what are the challenges in your social interactions and how can you really stick to your talents and don’t let all those feelings of others overwhelm you too much?
Kim: I love that so much. I feel like that’s such a hard part for us, such a challenge, because socially we feel so different. And again, it’s that what’s wrong with me? I cannot wait to see what you find there. I can’t wait. That sounds amazing.
Esther: Keep you posted it.
Kim: Yeah. Perfect. And how can people follow along on your journey?
Esther: Well, my website https://hoogsensitief.nl/category/english-blogs/. I’ll keep posting blocks about it so you can see what’s going on there.
Kim: Amazing. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. It was such a pleasure to meet you and hear all about your work.
Esther: Thank you, Kimberly. So nice to talk to you.
Thank you so much for listening in on my conversation with Esther. I hope you enjoyed learning more about the science and research behind high sensitivity and you’re reminded that we are wired for depth and complexity, which can show up as many of the challenges we grapple with as HSPs, but can also help uncover our gifts.
If you’re looking for more tools to build a gentler and more career as a highly sensitive person, that’s the work I do. You can go to happyhspcoaching.com to download your free Career Clarity Guidebook and Stress Less Toolkit, or set up a free coaching session with me to plan your next steps. I’d love to hear from you and learn more about your journey.
And last but not least, if today’s episode resonated with you, I would love for you to share it with another HSP who may need to hear these words, and if you feel called to do so, please leave a review — it an easy way to help more HSPs find the show and spread the love.
Until next time. Take care!
About Esther Bergsma:
Esther Bergsma (MSc) is a social science researcher and expert on high sensitivity from the Netherlands. She is bestselling author of The Brain of the Highly Sensitive Person and several Dutch books on high sensitivity. She trains professionals in understanding and guiding HSPs better. From teachers, to counsellors, therapists and managers. Esther is international keynote speaker known for her comprehensible way to explain scientific findings.
Follow along with Esther’s journey:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/esther-bergsma-1896327/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hoogsensitief.nl/
Website: https://hoogsensitief.nl/category/english-blogs/
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About Kimberly:
Kimberly Marshall is a career coach for highly sensitive people (HSPs) and host of The Happy HSP Podcast. After 20 years in the publishing industry working for companies like Time Inc., Monster.com, and W. W. Norton, she left her corporate career to pursue work that better suited her HSP needs. She now helps HSPs overcome burnout and low confidence in the workplace and create gentle and nurturing careers that bring them lots of purpose, meaning, and joy.
Through her work and creative ventures, Kimberly hopes to shed more light on the reality of living with high sensitivity and inspire more HSPs to embrace their empathetic, loving, and gentle natures.
Hosted/produced by Kimberly Marshall
Edited by Fonzie Try Media
Artwork by Tara Corola