Episode #23: How High Sensitivity Shapes HSPs and the World Around Us

Dr. Tracy Cooper on embracing sensitivity, redefining masculinity, and supporting the next generation of highly sensitive people.

Welcome back to The Happy HSP Podcast. I’m your host Kimberly Marshall, and today I’m joined by Dr. Tracy Cooper. He is a leading expert in our field who is known for his research and a wide-ranging scope of projects. He co-produced the documentary Sensitive Men Rising, authored three books on our trait, and has also published articles in The New York Timesand Psychology Today, among other works.

We dive into many HSP-related topics, including his work on high sensation seeking HSPs, HSP men and masculinity, and HSPs in careers. So, if you’re an HSP who loves to think deeply about the entire picture of high sensitivity and explore our trait from a variety of angles, then this episode is for you.

I hope you enjoy it!

Kim: Dr. Cooper, thank you so much for joining me today. It’s a pleasure to have you.

Dr. Cooper: Thank you, Kim. Delighted to be here.

Kim: Yeah. So, I love to start out learning about your journey and high sensitivity. So, I’m curious how you found out you had high sensitivity and what that journey looked like for you.

Dr. Cooper: Yeah, that’s an interesting one. I thought about that one prior to the interview, and of course, I’ve always known that I’m a sensitive person. Growing up as a kid, I mean, I knew that I was more affected by things, that I noticed things more than other people did, that I had certain preferences that other people didn’t seem to have, and that made me a little bit different in terms of, I would say being a misfit in some ways, being out of place, always feeling kind of out of place. So, I think for me, that was part of the journey of learning who I am and what I’m about. But I didn’t really learn anything about high sensitivity until much later in life. It wasn’t until my doctoral journey that came in midlife that I found out, Hey, this is actually a trait and this is a thing. And so, as a matter of doing that, I also realized that I’m a high-sensation seeker at the same time, so I’m a high sensation seeking, highly sensitive person.

Kim: So, you were studying your doctorate, and how did it come up? Was there an article or something that you came across that you were just like, whoa.

Dr. Cooper: Right. Yeah. For me, it was doing a dissertation, right? When you’re doing a doctorate of philosophy, you have to do a dissertation, so you have to come put the topic. I went in thinking that was going to do something based on introversion because I’m an introvert, but I realized there was so much literature already existing on it. There really wasn’t a gap in the literature that I could explore.

So, someone suggested to me, a fellow student suggested Elaine Aron’s book called The Highly Sensitive Person, the first book that she wrote. And so, I took a look at that, and I thought, okay, thank you. And I went and read it a little bit. I’m like, oh my gosh, I don’t know. I don’t know if I want to identify with this or how I want to digest this.

I put it aside, probably a lot of HSPs might, and thought about it for a while. Came back to it, reread it a couple of times, and then realized that, yeah, this really does make sense. So, it came to me by association. It took some time to get used to the idea that what this trait is, because it’s kind of complex at the same time, right? Learning what it is, it seems to have so many facets, but in fact, it does not. It’s something you can’t understand. But it took a while for me.

And it wasn’t something that I immediately felt like, wow, this is such a relief. Not for me. No. It felt like, okay, I’m going to have to unpack this and think about what impact this has had in my life, and this would make a good dissertation topic as it related to career. And so that’s why I wound up doing my dissertation on was the experience of highly sensitive people in their careers.

Kim: So, you ended up doing your dissertation on it?

Dr. Cooper: I did. Right. And I unearthed more about high sensation seeking HSPs, and during that time, reviewing the literature, and wow, I’m really interested in that area because I think that explains some things about my temperament and the way that I am, the way that I function in the world. And so, I thought I’ll come back to that later on.

And I mentioned it in my dissertation, but then I went on and did a book called Thrive: The Sensitive Person and Career followed that up with the book called Thrill: The High Sensation Seeking Highly Sensitive Person, which I really wrote just for myself as an exploration of that topic, and it’s turned out to be my most popular book to date. Of course, I wrote another book called Empowering the Sensitive Male Soul.

So those three topics sprang out of my dissertation, and that was the first time I really learned that there was such a thing as highly sensitive people or the trait itself sensory processing sensitivity. I didn’t know anything about it. Prior to that though, but I’d read a lot of psychological literature, a lot of people, I had no idea. I grew up in the 1970s and people didn’t talk about things like that.

Were just the way you were right back then. And I think even today, it’s still that way. In large part, people know you by your behaviors, your actions, your attitudes, but they didn’t know a lot about psychology back then. I think it’s different today though.

Kim: Yeah. And there’s much more awareness, it feels.

Dr. Cooper: More awareness. We had the film Sensitive: The Untold Story come out in 2015, all about highly sensitive people. If you haven’t seen that one, give that one a look. We had Sensitive Men Rising, which is now available about sensitive men that’s now available on Vimeo. You can find out so much more, so much more easily today about sensitivity than you ever could in the past. Every year there are dozens of peer-reviewed scientific studies that hit the public, and you can look up any of those and read ’em if you wish. So, they’re kind of boring at the same time. We digest those for you. People that are advocating for highly sensitive people, we digest those and present you with the main points, so it is readily available for you.

Kim: Wow. So, it sounds like you’ve done a lot of work in the field. It’s funny that you mentioned that at first you didn’t really connect with this and you’re like, ah, maybe not. What was that process like? If you could take me from learning about high sensitivity to, actually, let’s start with your first project with the connecting it to careers. What was that journey like and what did you find?

Dr. Cooper: Right. I think the impetus for that had to do more with my life journey to that point, having difficulty finding. I mentioned being an outsider and a misfit and feeling kind of out of place in life, and that took me to higher education later in life and eventually the doctoral journey, because I felt like I had to do something to really change my track because what I’d been doing to date to that point hadn’t really worked well. I hadn’t really found a place that fit me really well or that I fit into well, I maybe should say. But that journey was one that I feel like always been on because I’ve always been interested in what am I about? What is the meaning of what I’m doing with my life and how do I spend my time to the best advantage, not only for myself, but for things like public service? What can I do for other people? And so I was looking for a way to do that.

And so, kind of naturally encountering Dr. Elaine Aron’s work was revelatory in a way, but it took some time to get to know, right? Because it’s not an easy thing for men to think about the idea of being highly sensitive. Our culture has a lot of stigma around that. We’ve tried to break some of that stigma with our film, but my gosh, that journey took a while. Because if you grow up in an area of the United States or the world where men subscribe to traditional masculinity, I mean, the idea of being highly sensitive is an anathema to that.

So, it takes a certain amount of personal courage, personal authenticity to embrace that concept and understand it in a new way, let alone open yourself to this idea that, Hey, this is maybe who you are and this is fine. This is something that you can put to work in the world. So, for me, it was that gradual process. And by the end of my doctoral journey, I had felt like I fully embraced it. I was somebody that could own it and then wear it without feeling any sort of guilt or any sort of shame or any of that stigma. It didn’t matter to me at that point because I had fully invested into it, and I felt proud of it.

Kim: So, you kind of started to see like, wait, no, this is a positive thing that I can contribute to.

Dr. Cooper: It was a positive thing. And of the 37 people that I interviewed for my dissertation study, the stories that they communicated to me, some were of difficulties and suffering and things they had to go through to find some kind of balance, but some were really inspiring stories at the same time of what they’ve been able to do with their sensitivity, with their strengths. And some of the people were high sensation seekers also. And so those stories and narratives of what they’ve been able to do with their lives was inspiring for me at the same time.

Kim: So, what about careers did you uncover? And I don’t know if it touches on the men in careers, if you had that angle when you were thinking about this, or what did you find in that kind of realm?

Dr. Cooper: Yeah. There wasn’t an angle as far as, I wasn’t looking at the perceptions of sensitive men versus their careers. It was more highly sensitive people in careers. So, I was looking to have an equal representation. What we found was that anything related to highly sensitive people, it comes down to the environment that you’re in. So, the working environment and many cases unfortunately, is kind of brutal, that it’s not well-suited to the needs of highly sensitive people, but we can adapt our environments in some cases, and in some cases, we need to reverse the thinking instead of adapting ourselves to the environment, adapt the environment to us. In other words, we need to change the environment. If a workplace doesn’t suit you, perhaps there’s another way you can approach life that will make more sense to you as a sensitive person, because you do need to have those self-care practices in place.

It doesn’t need to work for you to a certain degree. It needs to be a good enough environment that you can survive in it sustainably. As much as you need to acquire the resources for life, you need to be able to be sustainable so it doesn’t burn you out. So, there are a lot of issues with burnout with highly sensitive people and with people that are high sensation seeking. We uncovered those in our study. We also uncovered things like the role of empathy. That’s a huge thing for sensitive people as we know the role of intuition that we’re creative people, particularly high sensation seekers or creative people, that we can be quite passionate about our ideals and our ethics, and those things really matter to us.

So, it’s not a surprise that we’re involved in things that can kind of loosely be grouped together as the helping professions. Many of us are counselors or teachers or creatives in some way, but we’re actually in all careers, some ideas that sensitive people are only going to be in certain things like librarians hiding in the back. But it’s not true at all. Sensitive people are in all careers just in varying percentages, and whether that works for them is another story. But I think we can adapt to any environment as long as it is overall supportive and sustaining for us. And that’s not true in every case.

Kim: Yeah. Supportive and sustaining, I feel like can be so different for each and every one of us individually.

Dr. Cooper: Right, because we all bring different things to the idea of a working position. We have different backgrounds and very different backgrounds.

Not only are we different sexes and different genders, but wow, we come from different socioeconomic backgrounds that all have a huge role to play in how we perceive the world, and therefore how we’re able to show up in the workplace. Our education levels, our experience levels, they all vary a lot. Not to mention being highly sensitive. So, it’s a mystery, kind of a wrapped and a riddle at the same time. It’s an enigma, and you got to get to know sensitive people over time. They’re not somebody that, they’re not people that you can get to know instantly. They’re people that take some time because they have some depth. And so, getting to know them through association, and then you’ll become familiar with the layers of depth. Not only that, they’re deep feeling people, that they’re maybe emotionally reactive or responsive, but that they’re also deeply empathetic people. They may be hiding it on the surface, but they’re feeling it underneath the surface, and they can also be quite clever people. So, there is that. It could be a real joy to get to know people that are highly sensitive.

Kim: So then what made you realize that you were high sensation seeking? And I find it interesting. You mentioned you were introverted, correct? Introverted yet high sensation seeking. I mean, to some people from the outside that may seem like such oxymoron. Can you kind of describe how you figured that out and what led you into your next project?

Dr. Cooper: Right. Being a high sensation seeker and a highly sensitive person at the same time really does seem counterintuitive or counter instinctual, but the traits really do coexist. There are up to half of the population of sensitive people are also high sensation seeking as we know now from our 2023 study. So, you’re as likely as not to be a high sensation seeker. And what that means is just a matter of degrees.

Everyone is a sensation seeker as a general trait. Whether you’re on the high kind of category is really up to you to decide or to define for yourself. But yeah, so the story of being a highly sensitive person answered some of the questions I had about life, some of the things that the way I experience life, the way I experience reality, those were informed by sensitivity. But there was another part of me that was I kind of thrill seeking to an extent. I love novelty and new adventures, experience seeking, and I’m susceptible to boredom.

And so, sensation seeking came to fill in some of those areas that sensitivity did not inform. So learning that provided a more complete picture of the way that I experienced life as a creative person, as a driven person, someone that likes to acquire new knowledge and new experiences, and that if I’m traveling, I will completely burn myself out, trying to find one more thing to see, one more thing to see, even though I’m exhausted, I still want to see that next thing.

So, it’s a lot like that, and I think you come to know it over time. And for me, it was not only highly informative, but I felt like those were my people. Those are the people I seriously identify with are the high sensation seeking highly sensitive people. I identify with HSPs as well, but I feel like finally there’s a group of people that are like me. They’ve always felt kind of like misfits and out of place, and there they are, high sensation seeking HSP. 

Kim: There I was, here you are, here we are.

Dr. Cooper: There we are. Right? And they’re doing amazing things out there in the world. So, I find it to be a very interesting group.

Kim: Amazing. Sounds like you almost explored the topic and was able to contribute to it in amazing ways through your own kind of exploration about your own self.

Dr. Cooper: Well, the best research really comes from your own explorations. If it’s rooted in your own experience of life, your own lived experiences, that tends to be the research you’re most passionate about that you’ll devote the most time to, and that means the most to you. And it’s been that way for me the whole way through. So interestingly, I had someone that was from one of my doctoral classes that said, you’re 10 years on from graduating and you’re still basically working on things related to your dissertation. It’s like, that’s astounding. It just doesn’t happen. Most people catalog their dissertation away and they’re not, they’re doing something entirely different. They go back to what they were doing prior. For me, it’s been an expansion of that, a blossoming of that. That continues to this day.

Kim: That’s incredible because that just shows me that there’s so much to explore in this field, in this work.

Dr. Cooper: It’s still early on, a lot of the basic research has been done as far as defining the traits, some of the brain science has been done to differentiate certain aspects to show that it has a biological basis. There’s still much to be done in terms of cultural studies, in terms of how do we support people, particularly in childhood, but also in adolescence and teenage years, not to mention, my gosh, all through the lifespan. How do we support people

Kim: At each phase…

Dr. Cooper: Through each phase of life, right. Huge areas.

Kim: Yeah. Then what about your studies on men and masculinity and where did that lead you?

Dr. Cooper: Oh, right. Yeah. So, looking at the role of how to highly sensitive men experience life and the trait itself, that was a whole other area that wasn’t ongoing exploration, but one that oddly enough, I’m on, myself as a sensitive man, that journey is my journey at the same time. But exploring it for other people was something that took some time as I was observing as any HSP would be doing. They would be observing and gathering information and thinking about it, reflecting on it. So my third book was called Empowering the Sensitive Male Soul, and that was the one that I wrote for highly sensitive men with all of the knowledge that I had gained to that point, that helped form some of the backbone for Sensitive Men Rising, the film, the three episode film that we have out now, that journey is one that is so expansive that you could just go down that road if you wanted to by yourself, a never tire of the detours and rabbit holes that you could go on.

But also, the need for it is tremendous as men that are highly sensitive, generally either don’t know it or they deny that they’re highly sensitive due to cultural stigmas or whatever they’ve experienced in life. We just wanted to make it more acceptable that you could consider the possibility that you could allow that maybe you’re highly sensitive and that’s not a bad thing at all. In fact, it could be quite a wonderful strength that you have. So, we wanted to recast it in terms of being a strength rather than a weakness or something that you needed to hide away in some way. And so, I found it to be an interesting journey, but it’s an ongoing one at the same time. So, I’ve actively mentored other people to help work in these simultaneous areas that are now starting to show some fruit.

Kim: So, work life, and high sensation seeking, and masculinity. I mean, not only have you been able to research and contribute to all these things, but I also film. Can you tell me more about Sensitive Men Rising? It just seems like such a beautiful, beautiful project.

Dr. Cooper: Yeah, it’s an amazing project and I’ve partnered with Will Harper, who is the director for Sensitive: The Untold Story, has an amazing oeuvre of work both in TV and video and film, and now he’s become known really as the sensitive director since he’s done several movies on sensitivity and he’s a delight to work with. But we originated this project right as the pandemic was breaking out. So, this was something we worked on all through the Pandemic for five-plus years.

And it’s something that took several twists and turns as we sought to get funding as we sought to create the film and to gather the interviews and the pieces. And I shot some of the interviews myself personally, so we traveled to some of the locations and set up a set and literally sat in front of certain people and then did the interviews, which was an amazing experience to be both simultaneously filtering what was happening through my own lens of where I had come from humble beginnings, but also seeing that I’m gathering these experiences in person and this is going to go on film and it’s going to live forever, and we’re going to be able to communicate through this film all of the things that are difficult to communicate in a book.

What you say on video is so much more readily accessible for people. It makes more sense to them if they see someone on film saying it than if they’re reading it in a book. So, it’s been an amazing journey really. The film started out being hopefully 60 minutes, but it turned into three episodes and it’s nearly three hours in the end because we have three different pieces to it that needed to be communicated. And there it is.   

Kim: Can you tell me a little bit about when you went into this project, what you were expecting it to be, and then what you came out of how that might’ve differed? What did it end up being?

Dr. Cooper: Initially when we talked about it, our initial discussions between myself and Will Harper was the idea of doing a true documentary film that would just be interviews with other sensitive men. There would be no experts, there would be no celebrities or anything like that because we had done that in the first film, Will had done that in the first film. But it turned out as we went along and needed to get funding and we needed to get recognition that we needed to have or solicit some people with expertise to help build the film up to help bulk it up a bit. And so, we got somebody like a narrator like Peter Coyote, we got some other celebrities that volunteered to be in the film, like Alanis Morissette, Luke Goss, who was in the boy band in the eighties called Bros, and then now is an amazing action film star in the United States and around the world.

And they have amazing insights to share not only about their children on Alanis’s part, but Luke Goss’s experience as a high sensation seeking sensitive man is what I would say he is. But how we started is one thing, and how we ended up is this amazing growth and blossoming of the idea. And I think it can go so much further yet because the stories are, we just captured a few stories that there’s an endless number of variety to the stories that still remain to be told. So, we cracked it open, we opened the door, but there’s still so much work to be done that could go on for decades.

Kim: Amazing…smelling another project?

Dr. Cooper: The next film really needs to cover something like sensitive children because it is going back to the beginning with what happens early in life really begins to color how you experience the rest of your life. So that early environment becomes so important. And so, I would be all for something like a film for exploring the idea of the sensitive childhood and how can we best support as parents and as educators and community members, how can we support not only the sensitive children, but really all children? Because what works for the sensitive child is also probably going to be very good for the less sensitive kids.

Kim: Right. And we’re so much more susceptible to the environments that we’re in at that age, especially in those formative years. It’s such an important part of us to be cognizant of in our development.

Dr. Cooper: It is right the environment and yet the set of time in our lives when we have literally no control over that environment. We talked about adults and being able to adapt your environment or change your environment or modify your environment. But as children, we have no control over what happens to us. And that’s the unfortunate part. And society can do a lot as far as supporting younger people, and so we really want to advocate for that. So I could see another film that would explore that aspect and help raise awareness for parents around if you have a highly sensitive child, here’s maybe what they’re going to resemble and what you can do as a parent that will help support them, but without coddling them necessarily, or thinking of you have to treat them with kid gloves, no you just need to understand their temperament and the way they process and some of their needs.

But they’re still kids and they’re still going to want to explore and they’re still going to be rowdy at times and they’re still going to cry unpredictably all the things that kids do. So just providing that sustaining, nurturing, loving environment will go a long way. And most parents do try to do that, but just being aware, if you have a sensitive child that need for downtime or to recharge, that’s a real thing. It’s not something that they really get a choice about. That’s the way their brain works, the way they’re wired. So, if we can accept that there are differences between people and the patterning starts very young in life, so we can avoid adverse childhood experiences, the ACEs as they’re called. We really go a long ways towards providing a firm foundation for these children.

Kim: Yeah, I think that’s so important because even when I think back on my childhood, and I’ve heard so many other HSPs mention is that a lot of parents think we’re acting out or being unruly and what you mentioned, we have very deep needs at that age that just needs more understanding of how I think to deal with that. Otherwise, it can kind of get out of control.

Dr. Cooper: It can get out of control for the sensitive child with parents that don’t understand their child or that use a type of discipline that doesn’t work for the sensitive child. And so, it’s important that we understand how the trait works. If you understand that, then you can understand how to best support your children.

And again, that’s going to be divided by things like social class and backgrounds that the parents come from and the environment that they’re capable of providing. So, there are all those nuances and the cultural nuances of thinking of it globally. How do we support not only children in the United States, but around the world? Sensitive children are everywhere. So how do we raise consciousness or continue to raise consciousness around the trait around the globe?

Kim: Yeah, you made me think of, I believe it’s, what’s the book? It’s about leadership, Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking, I believe, and how highly sensitive children, if they’re grown, born into a family that supports that cultural part of us and really sees that sensitivity as a strength instead of stop crying, especially I’m thinking young boys suck it up when we grow up in families that support that and see that and love that, we have such more confidence than the ones who are told to tamper that down.

Dr. Cooper: Right? Exactly. Yeah. And so, depending on the country and the culture that you’re from, even the subregion of the country that you’re from vary widely in the way that parents choose to discipline or they choose to impart their familial culture onto their children. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. But sometimes it’s completely unsuitable for a sensitive child out.

So, I think it’s worth reassessing the way that we parent to a certain extent, and parents do the best they can. I’m a parent of four children myself and absolutely did the best I can. And now I have two grandchildren, and I still work very hard at showing up for them and trying to embrace this role of being kind of an elder sage or having some kind of wisdom as a grandpa. But it’s a fun process. And the more I look at my own grandchildren, I have a daughter that’s seven and a grandson that is four, and I think they’re both probably sensitive to some degree, especially my granddaughter. And I see that in her in a way that I didn’t necessarily see in my own daughters. So, seeing that play out now and knowing how to look for those signs and how to look for that temperament showing up, it’s quite an amazing thing actually, to have perspective.

Kim: Yeah, it’s so many factors, like you were mentioning. So many factors.

Dr. Cooper: And yeah, happy to say also that she’s experienced a good childhood with no traumas, no ACEs, so she’s been well supported.

Kim: Yeah, that’s wonderful. I can’t say that happens for all of us, but that’s good.

Dr. Cooper: It does not. But then we face trying to address our own traumas that we’ve experienced, and trauma for sensitive people doesn’t have to be like the worst trauma. It has to do with how we process that, what it meant to us. And it’s something that we can, unfortunately can linger in our lives as we ruminate on that, as we overthink it and have difficulty separating from, and it can cause a lot of real problems like anxiety and depression and so on.

So it’s so important that we have that good environment early on, but if we didn’t experience that necessarily, or we experienced some trauma like that and everybody does to some extent that we process that we get some help for it, that we don’t think of mental health as something that is a stigma rather than, and I think that is coming on with younger generations, that they’re more open to talking about mental health. And I think that is a win. I think that is a win that we still have terribly high suicide rates and incidences of anxiety and depression as society. I think that people are more open about talking about those things in a way that prior generations, they just literally did suck it up and then they went home and they self-medicated through alcohol or drugs or what have you to get through their lives. But today, I think it’s changing. I think that’s encouraging.

Kim: Thank you for bringing that up. And actually, the work that you do, don’t you do to some extent some suicide prevention with men specifically?   

Dr. Cooper: I’m actually an ambassador for an organization, a nonprofit called Walt’s Waltz, and unfortunately, Walt Crooks is somebody that we lost to suicide in 2018, and I happen to know him and his mother and his mother actually founded Walt’s Waltz. Waltz Fault. And its mission really is to de-stigmatize what mental health care is and to have these open conversations about how do we support mental health, how do we encourage people to ask for help, how do we encourage it in workplaces? How do we change the culture? But ultimately the idea of reducing suffering and preventing, preventing what should be preventable suicides.

Kim: Right. Was this something that you found in your, I’d love to touch on the masculinity part with you for a moment while I have you. What did you find when it came to high sensitivity in masculinity? What were some of the insights that you’ve uncovered in this realm?

Dr. Cooper: Sensitive men tend to engage in a certain amount of masking, of putting on a public mask, a persona that allows them to be passable with regular society, sometimes with men that are more hardcore men that are more traditional hegemonic masculinity. So, if you don’t look like somebody that’s different, at least on the exterior, then you’re not necessarily perceived as somebody that’s different. So, a lot of men, unfortunately, learned to wear mask. I think it’s common actually for most people. We learned to have some kind of a public persona is the sociological concept of dramaturgical analysis that sometimes we’re on front stage, sometimes we’re backstage, but always wearing a mask sometimes when we’re front stage.

So, since they men have that, since they men often masked their sensitivity or they’re not aware of it, and so they tend to shove it aside into the shadows, and that can be tremendously problematic because they’re cutting off maybe the best part of themselves. They’re cutting off their empathy, they’re cutting off their creativity and their intuition, things that are assets and strengths, and so it’s up to men to step out of those shadows, right? Lest the shadows reassert themselves in our lives through anger and violence and what have you.

So, we really want to encourage men, the doors open for you already. Go watch the film Sensitive Men Rising. It’s free and see what other men have to say. See what experts have to say and learn that if you’re sensitive, it’s a strength. It’s something that can be harnessed. It’s something that can be acknowledged and accepted, and then you can go on with life and you can go on and do amazing things. It doesn’t mean that you’re not going to struggle at times that you’re not going to have difficulties, but at least knowing that you’re not hiding something, that it’s hidden away somewhere, it’s something you can fully embrace and just not have a concern about. It’s something that makes sense in the way that your brain functions.

Kim: Yeah, that authenticity. And I feel like a lot of HSPs are calling for more empathy in the world today, and I just have this sense that we would get even more strength and power out of highly sensitive men stepping forward with their empathy, because I feel like empathy coming from the masculine is just so much more powerful, if that makes sense. Do you know what I mean? A man being able to show empathy is just like, what an example…

Dr. Cooper: Because maybe it’s unexpected, right? It’s maybe out of character, at least in terms of how our society has deemed masculinity to be a role to play. When a man is expressing empathy or expressing his intuition or expressing things that are traditionally perhaps thought of as feminine, then he’s embracing a side of himself that not a lot of men necessarily are able to do with real confidence. And so, it seems novel and new and impressive in some way, but it really shouldn’t be because empathy is inherent in the human species. It should be something that’s commonplace and ordinary.

I think in the past, perhaps it was more ordinary to be empathetic towards your neighbors and towards your community members to not be quite as divided as we are today. We’ve always had disagreements, but we’re able to set those aside and see each other as human beings and to treat each other with fundamental respect. And I think that’s one of the lessons we could get back to is community feeling, loving our neighbors and communicating with each other in an open way. It is part of the mark of intelligence and a good critical thinker to entertain another opinion without necessarily having to subscribe to it yourself. So, if we could get back to that point of simply being able to have space for other opinions, I think that we could go a long ways, but we’re facing an uphill battle with the influx of technology and social media. It’s really, I think, corrupted the human mind in many ways that it’s a road back to gentility and compassion and empathy, and none of that makes you soft or weak or incapable in any way. It makes you human, and we need more of that.

Kim: Love that so much. I feel like we, yeah, social media, AI, all of that stuff is taking us so far in this direction that hopefully it will bring us to a way back. I feel like maybe people are feeling more disconnected and we’re starting to see that authenticity is desirable and empathy, and at least I’m in that camp. The hope.

Dr. Cooper: Well, I think, yeah, definitely having people out there that are doing things like you’re doing, having podcasts and advocating for fundamental humanness in society, I think is a call to people to wake up and to go out and talk to your neighbors, to talk to people that are strangers to you in public and say, hello, good afternoon. Have a little chat and conversation without it necessarily having to be anything more. I think there’s a civility that needs to come back into society that we can do. It’s our choice, always our choice to do that.

Kim: Absolutely. What would you say you struggle with personally as a highly sensitive person? What’s your biggest challenge?

Dr. Cooper: I would say I struggle, and it’s not a new struggle, but I think I struggle some with anxiety, and I think that’s common for sensitive of people. I tend to overthink things, and I tend to need to plan ahead, or I tend to want to know what I’m going to experience, and my body then says, I don’t want to experience that. So, it’s this disconnect maybe between the body and the mind and feel like sometimes that also has to do with high sensation seeking. High sensation seeking is the rocket fuel that propels me towards new experiences, saying yes to things like say, doing a podcast and then later I’m like, oh, I don’t know.

I have to be recorded and I’m going to have to talk in public. So, I struggle with anxiety and being able to calm that nervous system to reengage back with the calmer part of myself that allows me to function in the way that I prefer to the way that I want to. But that’s like a lifelong struggle, so it’s not new for me. I would’ve thought by now at the age of 59, I would’ve had a handle on it, but dog gone every single time, whether it’s doing a podcast or an interview or teaching a class that’s live Zoom, there’s still the butterflies and there’s still the anxiety of, what am I going to say? I have sometimes no idea.

Kim: So funny you mentioned that, and that’s why I feel like I try and give as much information because I know how that feels too. Just like with HSP specifically, we need to know every question you’re going to ask, and we need to prepare to feel comfortable because we’re big picture thinkers as much as the details.   

Dr. Cooper: I did that in my dissertation study as I provided the questions in advance so people had a chance to think about it. And so now when I do something like an interview and somebody provides a questions, I’m like, yeah, they know that I need to think about this and reflect on it before I have to hear the question.

Kim: Absolutely. So, I’m with you there. What do you love about the trait? What do you celebrate?

Dr. Cooper: I’m high in aesthetic sensitivity. So, if you have three factors to sensitivity or sensory processing, sensitivity as the scientific term of ease of excitation, lower arousal threshold and aesthetic sensitivity, I’m really high in aesthetic sensitivity. So, I appreciate being able to notice things like the quality of the air in the morning. Like I go for a walk every morning that’s about two miles or so, and when it is cool and moist, I can breathe much easier and I have more endurance, and I appreciate that so much. Just the quality of the day and noticing things. One of the things I noticed that I think people just overlook, but when I’m walking in this nature walk, I often hear birds singing, calling, and the funny thing is a lot of times a bird is communicating with another bird. So, you hear one bird call and then across the river another bird is responding.

It’s call and response, call and response. I find that there is an amazing thing that just gives me a sense of joy every time I hear it, whether it’s a crow or any kind of bird. Even owls when I hear them, I was like, oh, that’s amazing. So, I take delight in things I think that people overlook, but I also, I’m also a gardener and I love plants, and so I take joy in raising a little seedling from a seed and then watching it grow and eventually it bears some kind of fruit. I find it to be an amazing experience. For me, the aesthetic sensitivity I think is fundamentally what I appreciate most about being highly sensitive. I love art, fine art. I go to museums and I’ve done a lot of fine art in my life, and that process of being around other creatives I think is a fascinating one, and learning how they approach life differently and their creative processes.

So, I appreciate that. I think also the empathy of being able to sense how other people are feeling and understand maybe how to best support them in that moment. Sometimes it’s just best to sit with someone and let them be in presence with someone while they are processing sometimes out loud and take that on for them and allow them to have that person being there. It’s a rarity in today’s world that someone will be there for you when you’re having a difficult time, and you need to process that without having to pay a therapist to do that. A real friend that is able to do that I think is a rarity, so I appreciate that.

Kim: Knowing us, even as strangers, I feel like we hold that space.

Dr. Cooper: Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes it’s amazing meeting new people like doing a workshop or something that people will come to me and communicate all kinds of things that are usually reserved for people that are more familiar. But I embrace it. I embrace it fully because you can have these amazing conversations that there’s an openness to HSPs, particularly when they’re comfortable, when they’re feeling comfortable and safe, there can be an amazing openness, and that’s a wonderful quality that we can have a human-to-human connection. So, so many things to appreciate about being highly sensitive, even though there are challenges, there are also wonderful opportunities for us that if we allow it in our lives and embrace it, I think it could be an amazing strength, but also can help you to live an amazing life, a happy life, if you will.

Kim: Yeah, more full, more colorful, not only hearing the birds singing, but wondering who they’re calling to. And there’s just more to that. There’s more to that, and I feel like we are the ones who see that, and it’s beautiful.

Dr. Cooper: We see it and we feel it, and sometimes we communicate it back in different ways. I think being able to experience that richness, that tapestry of life and all of its manifestations is part of why we exist in the species, to remind us that not only are we fundamentally human, but we have a connection to nature itself, but we have a connection to each other and that we’re able to do these things so we can help other people by showing them these things maybe that we’ve noticed along the way, and that helps to open their eyes to something new. So, there’s all kinds of ways that we can not only be in our HSP bubbles and happy in that, but we can open it up and turn the light backwards. We could externally shine our light out and do things for other people.

Kim: What advice do you have for HSPs who may be struggling with finding joy or meaning or purpose in their life? What would you say?

Dr. Cooper: I would say that for sensitive people, it depends on your background, whether you’ve suffered traumas in your past or not. If you have, there’s help for you. There’s help to help heal some of the traumas that you’ve been through. There is certainly help to understand what it means to be highly sensitive, and that can be informative, really informative about the way you are experiencing life. Presently. It’s only one facet of life. The trait that we inherit genetically sensitivity is a genetic trait. So, we have a high heritability from one of our parents usually, or it could be both, but the other parts are the environments that we’re in and the things we experience in those environments. And lastly, our personal choices that we make. So, our lives eventually are shaped to create these personalities, if you will, that are influenced by genetics, our environment, and our own personal choices.

So, we have a lot of say in affecting the quality of our lives and whatever our genetics are, they’re not our future. So, we can heal from trauma, we can learn to flourish, we can learn to thrive, we can learn to really appreciate the traits that we have, and we probably have other traits on top of sensitivity. So, I think as exploring this strong trait and then appreciating that we all have other dimensions to ourselves, and I think it’s an amazing thing that we can do. And if you’re looking for meaning and purpose, I think it’s not going to fall out of the sky. It’s something that you really have to work at, and it may be something that only holds meaning and purpose for you. You may decide for yourself, I want to become an author and advocate for high life sensitive people. Well, that’s your thing.

That’s something you’ll develop over time. And you’ll find there is a helpful community of people that are kind of on that same trail or maybe some other passion that you have that brings you meaning and hope. Maybe you start a nonprofit that feeds people that are homeless or whatever the case. So, it is up to you to define what holds meaning for you, particularly in a sustainable way. And that may change, especially if you’re high sensation seeking. It may seem really novel and interesting at first, but then maybe you need to pass that off to someone else and go on to the next thing and keep reinventing yourself. So, there are differences between high sensation seeking HSPs and highly sensitive people.

Kim: I love that too. Keep reinventing yourself. Let yourself explore. Let yourself discover. You don’t have to figure it all out in one thing.

Dr. Cooper: Oh, yeah. And you will not figure it all out. You’ll not. In a way, it’s getting to know yourself over time.

It takes time, right? And not everything you learn is going to be wonderful. Some of the things you’re going to learn are going to be opportunities for you to reflect on and to decide, can I modify this in some way? And if I have a problem with anger or a problem with sadness, what can I do? Are there strategies I can incorporate that will help me to feel more uplifted? Are there changes I can make in my life that will change that environment? It really comes down to environment again. We know that from differential susceptibility theory, that we do better, far better in supportive nurturing environments, and we do far worse than average in chaotic, negative or abusive environments. So, we really do have to focus on the quality of our environment.

Kim: And when you say environment, you mean relationships and people, right? Mostly.

Dr. Cooper: Oh wow. It’s everything really. It’s not just the physical environment that we’re in in our workplaces and the people that we’re dealing with, the way that we deal with other people, the way that other people deal with us, the meaningfulness of our chosen careers or our work, and not all of us are going to be professionals. Some of us are going to be working in the trades or whatever the case. They all have meaning though work is honorable.

So, the environments are something that it’s all-encompassing, right? It’s like the water that a goldfish is in a bowl. That’s the environment for that fish. It can’t control a whole lot, but humans have a lot of say. We have a lot of choices, and as much as we can influence those environments for ourselves and for other people by extension, if we have a good environment that’s also going to benefit other people, because we’re sensing early on what may be a warning sign that the environment’s not a balance in our own lives. So, if we can mitigate that in our lives, it’s also going to benefit our children or our spouses or our partners. It has carryover effects to other people if we’re able to concentrate on the quality of our overall environments.

Kim: Thank you so much for mentioning all that, because I feel like it’s not a cut and dry question. Find the right environment. This is so complex. This is why this takes time and highly sensitive people. We want to do the right things. This is why it takes time. This is why it’s such a long journey. This is why it takes so much discovery. There’s so much to learn.

Dr. Cooper: Oh man, there’s so much to learn. And luckily, there are more resources than there used to be in the past, and there are more people who are taking up the cause of life coaching and of advocating for highly sensitive people like myself and other people that are there to help you. So, you have a whole community of people that are on the same journey.

So, it’s not quite as much of a lonely path as it used to be. So, reach out and find at least one other highly sensitive person or one other high sensation seeking highly sensitive person and make friends with them. Find a couple of those kinds of friends. You need at least one though, because that way you can help. You can post-process things that happen in your life and get some feedback on, am I processing this right? Does this make sense to you the way I’m thinking about this? Or am I off-base? Sometimes it happens that way too.

Kim: So, with you, HSPs need other HSPs very dearly.

Dr. Cooper: We really do.

Kim: What’s the seven-week course that you’re working on? Can you tell me about that? What’s this?

Dr. Cooper: Right, thank you for mentioning that. It is called the Highly Sensitive High Sensation Seeker, Thriving in the Chaos. It’s a seven-week online course being hosted by Jules DeVitto’s, Highly Sensitive Human Academy.

So, it’s actually ongoing in week three, and this is the first cohort going through this. And so, we’re looking at high sensation seeking and highly sensitive in all of its manifestations through this practical lens. And I’m gearing it towards helping professionals. So, anybody that’s working with people, whether you’re an educator or a counselor or a therapist or psychologist or whatever, your capacity, if you’re working with other people that may be highly sensitive or high sensation seeking this course will help you to see how to better support them as well as to understand your own traits better.

Kim: Got it. So, it’s professionals in the space. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off.

Dr. Cooper: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it’s helping professionals, and I loosely call that “helping professionals” so that we can incorporate more people that are working in different capacities, not just limiting to counselors or people that are life coaches or that kind of thing, but rather anybody that’s working with people, those are really helping professionals. So, you could be in the business world working in HR, you could be working in healthcare. So, it could be so beneficial to learn not only how these traits work, the dual traits work together, but then how to really learn how to take care of yourself and how to navigate both of those traits so that they stay in some kind of relative balance.

Kim: Wow, that’s incredible. I can imagine that even being helpful in corporate environments with managers and working with HSPs on their team and leadership. That’s awesome.

Dr. Cooper: Oh right. Yeah. And I’m there to give feedback on the lessons that are available in each week. So, whatever your experience is, whatever’s happening in your life, I’m there to be able to help give feedback and to validate ideas that are, provide you with other resources. So, it’s quite an engaging conversation.

Kim: And how can people follow along on your journey? How can they connect with you?

Dr. Cooper: Right. Yeah, so you can find my website @drtracycooper.org. I’m easily available on social media, particularly LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram are my primary vehicles, but you can find those. My profile at all of those is Tracy Cooper, PhD, and you can easily find me. It’s really not difficult at all. Sensitivemenrising.org is the website for the other film, and I look forward to continuing to work. There’s other books in the works that will be shared in coming years and other projects to be had. So, it’s an amazing time actually, of blossoming.

Kim: Yeah. Thank you so much, Tracy. Not only for joining me today, but for all the work you’re doing. It’s just incredible.

Dr. Cooper: Well, thank you. It’s been a delight, and I love talking about my journey and how we can help advocate for highly sensitive people and sensitive men and high sensation seeking highly sensitive people. It’s quite a gift in a way to embrace this role and do it over a long period of time.

Kim: We’re so lucky to have you in this industry and doing the work you do. You’ve contributed so much. And just thank you for sharing that with us today.

Dr. Cooper: Sure, absolutely. Love to share.

Thank you so much for listening in on my conversation with Dr. Cooper. I hope it reminds you that our trait of high sensitivity is as complex as our individual journeys. Growth in sensitivity takes time but it is so worth the richness and connection, both to ourselves and to others, that we gain as a result.

If this episode resonated with you, I’d love if you could share it with someone who could use these words or leave a review to help more HSPs find this show. It’s a quick and easy way to spread the awareness and support that comes along with our shared experience and understanding.

And if you could use support creating a gentle and nurturing career as an HSP, that’s the work I do. You can visit happyhspcoaching.com to download your free career clarity guidebook and stress-less toolkit. And while you’re there don’t forget to sign up for a free career clarity breakthrough session with me. I’d love to hear from you and learn more about your journey!

Until next time. Take care!

About Dr. Tracy Cooper

Dr. Tracy Cooper is a leading expert on highly sensitive people (HSPs), high sensation seeking HSPs, and highly sensitive men. He co-produced the documentary Sensitive Men Rising and authored three books: Thrive: The Highly Sensitive Person and Career, Thrill: The High Sensation Seeking Highly Sensitive Person, and Empowering the Sensitive Male Soul.

Dr. Cooper serves as a professor at Baker University Graduate School of Education, mentoring doctoral candidates in higher education leadership. His work has been published in Current Research in the Behavioral Sciences, The New York Times, and Psychology Today, as well as numerous podcasts and articles.

As an ambassador for non-profit Walt's Waltz.org, he promotes raising public awareness to reduce the stigma around mental health conversations, harm reduction, and suicide, especially in men. Dr. Cooper’s current focus is a 7-week online professional training for helping professionals focusing on high sensation seeking highly sensitive people.

Follow along on Dr. Cooper’s journey:
Website: drtracycooper.org, sensitivemenrising.org
Social: @tracycooperphd (Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram)

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About Kimberly:

Kimberly Marshall is a career coach for highly sensitive people (HSPs) and host of The Happy HSP Podcast. After 20 years in the publishing industry working for companies like Time Inc., Monster.com, and W. W. Norton, she left her corporate career to pursue work that better suited her HSP needs. She now helps HSPs overcome burnout and low confidence in the workplace and create gentle and nurturing careers that bring them lots of purpose, meaning, and joy. 

Through her work and creative ventures, Kimberly hopes to shed more light on the reality of living with high sensitivity and inspire more HSPs to embrace their empathetic, loving, and gentle natures.

• Hosted/produced by Kimberly Marshall

• Edited by Fonzie Try Media

• Artwork by Tara Corola